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Montmorency
5/1/12 Douglas Richardson

Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 242-246 has an extended account of the early baronial/comital Clare family of England. On page 242-243, a brief account is given of Gilbert Fitz Richard (styled also de Clare and de Tonbridge), lord of Clare, Suffolk, who died in 1117.

Regarding his marriage and death, the following information is provided:

"He married Adeliz, daughter of Hugh, Count of Clermont in Beauvaisis, by Marguerite, daughter of Hilduin, Count of Montdidier and Roucy. He died 1114 or 1117. His widow married, 2ndly, (?Bouchard) de Montmorency." END OF QUOTE.

Complete Peerage cites as its source for the marriage of Gilbert and Alice as Père Anselme (no volume or page). it also refers the reader to a note by J.R. Planché in Journal of the Biritish Arch. Assoc.., vol. xxvi, p. 150. Neither source is quoted.

Elsewhere there is a modern biography of Gilbert de Clare [otherwise Gilbert fitz Richard, Gilbert of Tonbridge] published in new Oxford Dictionary of National Biography [ODNB]. Regarding Gilbert's marriage and death, the following information is provided:

"Gilbert was married, probably before the division of his father's estates with Roger, to Alice (Aliz), daughter of the count of Clermont in the Beauvaisis ... Gilbert’s last dated appearance is at Westminster on 16 September 1115; the Welsh annals note his death in 1117." END OF QUOTE

Strangely, ODNB cites neither Complete Peerage, Père Anselme, or Planché as a source. Nor is any reference made to the 2nd marriage of Alice de Clermont to [?Bouchard] de Montmorency. Both ODNB and C.P. are in agreement, however, that Alice's father was Count of Clermont in Beauvaisis.

Unfortunately both C.P. and ODNB are in error regarding Alice's father, Hugues de Clermont, being the Count of Clermont. There is a good account of Hugues de Clermont published in Luçay, Le Comté de Clermont en Beauvaisis (1878): 9–11. This source may be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=QMonAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA9

On page 11, Luçay specifically states the following:

"Ni Suger, ni les chartes que nous avons eues sous les yeux, ne donnent à Hugues le titre de comte; elles le qualifient seulement seigneur de Clermont.” END OF QUOTE.

That Luçay is correct is borne out by two records published in Muller, Prieuré de Saint-Leu d’Esserent: Cartulaire 1 (Pubs. Soc. Hist. du Vexin) (1900), which may be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=phcOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA44

On page 44, there is a charter of Alice de Clermont, wife of Gilbert de Clare, in which she styles herself "daughter of Hugues de Clermont" [Hadalaidis, filia Hugonis de Claromonte, scilicet uxor Gisleberti de Anglia]. The purpose of Alice's charter was to found an anniversary at the Priory of Saint-Leu d’Esserent for herself and for her parents, Hugues and Marguerite. Alice's father is no where styled count in this document, even though he was surely then deceased.

Likewise, on pages 34–36, Muller presents the testament of Alice de Clermont's sister, Marguerite de Gerberoy, who similarly styles herself “daughter of Hugues de Clermont” [filia Hugonis de Claromonte]. Marguerite arranged for her burial at the Priory of Saint-Leu d'Esserent, for which she gave the Priory the sixth part of the tithe of Courlaye for the foundation of her anniversary. This document mentions her husband, Gerard [de Geberoy]; Pierre son of the said Gerard; and Count Renaud brother of the said Marguerite). Once again Hugues de Clermont is no where styled count in this document.

Jackson, Words, Names, & History: Selected Papers [of] Cecily Clark (1995) gives evidence which confirms both Alice de Clermont's parentage and her 2nd marriage. On page 335, according to Jackson, Margareta de ierborai [Gerberoy] is entered in LV as the sister of Alice de Clermont. LV is Liber Vitae of Thorney Abbey (BL., Add. MS. 40,000, Marguerite de Gerberoy is the same lady mentioned above by Muller. On page 336, Jackson states that "Burchardus de muntmorenci" is entered in LV as 2nd husband of Alice de Clermont.

Jackson may be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=YxVgyLzgXpQC&pg=PA335

As far as I know, this is the first concrete evidence which confirms the given name of Alice de Clermont's 2nd husband, Bouchard de Montmorency. I presume this man is the same person as Bouchard [III] de Montmorency seigneur of Montmorency, who was living in 1124.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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Adrienne Boaz

Gilbert and Adelaide are two of my ancestors whom I have been busy writing biographies for lately. Just today, I picked up a book which was mentioned by Douglas. I haven't had a chance to translate it from French, but here is the citation and page number for the counts of Clare, which does state that Adeliza was the daughter of Hugh and Marguerite:

de Sainte-Marie, Anselme, Augustin Déchaussé, and M. du Fourny. Histoire Genealogique et Chronologique de la Maison Royale de France, des Pairs: Grands Officiers de la Couronne & de la Maison du Roy, & des anciens Barons du Royaume… Troisiéme Édition. Tome Second (Second Book). La Compagnie des Libraires Associez. 1726. Page 481.

From page 481:
"Gilbert II. du nom, comte de Clare & de Cardigan... Femme, Alix de Clermont, fille d'Hugues comte de Clermont en Beauvoisis, & de Marguerite de Roucy, mariée avant 1113."
"Gilbert II. name, Earl of Clare & Cardigan... Wife, Alix de Clermont, daughter of Hugh Count of Clermont in Beauvoisis, & Margaret of Roucy, married before 1113."

Here is a rough draft of the bios I've written for Gilbert and Adelaide. I realize that that when I send this, the formatting is going to really ruin the superscript codes I've created which I use as my citations. When you see two letters followed by a number, just know that that is a code that refers to the alphabetical bibliography of my book (which is not finished). Like I said, these bios aren't complete, because I haven't had a chance to look at the Histoire Genealogique yet, so more will be added. Additionally, I am not arguing with Douglas Richardson at all. He may be absolutely correct! Thank you, Doug, for the additional reference. I just figured I'd add what I've discovered thus far... and I’m sorry about what I’m sure will be ugly formatting.

Gilbert FitzRichard, Lord of Clare, Tonbridge, and Cardigan (Richard, Rohese) was also known as “Gilbert de Clare” GI6, RO14 or “Gilbert de Tonbridge” PL1, RO14; he was born before 1066 and married Adelaide/Adeliza de Clermont WE3, GI6, RO14. In the spring of 1088, he and his brother, Roger, fortified the castle of Tonbridge, located in Kent and southeast of London, against King William Rufus, but he was injured and taken captive when he defended it against the onslaught of the king’s army RO14. He fell out of favor with King William Rufus after this BA9. He succeeded his father as the Lord of Clare and Tonbridge WE3, WH4, GI6, and was the founder of the Priory of Clare in 1090 WE3, GI6. Gilbert may have been the recipient of the lands of Rainald FitzIvo in Norfolk, and he although he originally opposed King William, he did serve in his army in 1091 and 1095 BA9. He was mentioned, along with many other men, as being present with William Rufus for his impending Channel crossing from either Dover or Hastings in 1091, and Gilbert may have accompanied the king to Normandy BA9. In June 1095, while William Rufus marched northward, Gilbert warned the king of an ambush RO14. In Colchester on August 29, 1096, he helped lay the cornerstones of St. John’s Abbey, which was founded by his brother-in-law, Eudes RO14. There is a good possibility that he was in attendance at Brockenhurst (the alleged site of the king’s death) when William Rufus was fatally shot with an arrow by Gilbert’s brother-in-law, Walter Tirel RO16, in August 1100 RO14. He spent Christmas of 1101 with King Henry I at Winchester RO14, and the king granted him the lordship of Cardigan sometime between 1107 and 1111 GI6, WE3. In 1113, he consented to a charter created by his mother, and he died of a prolonged illness RO14 between 1114 and 1117 WE3, RO14.

Adelaide de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis (Hugh, Marguerite) was also known as “Adeliz” GI6, TA1 or “Adeliza de Claremont” WE4, and was the wife of Gilbert FitzRichard GI6, WE4, TA1. She was the mother of Adeliza (Alice) de Clare GI6, WE3, WH4, PL1, Richard FitzGilbert, Gilbert de Clare, the first earl of Pembroke GI6, WH4, PL1, Baldwin, Margaret, who married William de Montfichet RO19, PL1, and perhaps also John, Walter, Henry (Hervey RO14), and Rohaisia PL1. After Gilbert’s death, she married Bouchard de Montmorency, although his given name is questionable GI6.

Barlow, Frank. William Rufus. University of California Press. Berkley. 1983. Pages 73, 140, 170-171, 228, 278-280, and 469.

Gibbs, The Hon. Vicary, George Edward Cokayne, and H. Arthur Doubleday. The Complete Peerage, Volume III. Canonteign to Cutts. The St. Catherine Press. London. 1913. Pages 242-243.

Planché, J.R., Esq. “The Earls of Worcester and Hertford.” The Journal of the British Archaeological Association. Vol. XXVI. The British Archaeological Association. London. 1870. Pages 150-152.

Round, J.H. “Clare, Gilbert de (d. 1115?).” Dictionary of National Biography. Volume X. Chamber-Clarkson. Editor Leslie Stephen. Macmillan and Co. New York. 1887. Page 377.

Round, J.H., M.A. Feudal England. Historical Studies on the XIth and XIIth Centuries. Swan Sonnenschein & Co. London. 1895. Pages 322-324, 469-470, and 472.

Round, J.H., M.A. “The Family of Clare.” The Archaeological Journal. Volume LVI. Second Series, Vol. VI. The Royal Archaeological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland. London. 1899. Pages 222-226.

Tait, James, M.A. The Chartulary or Register of The Abbey of St. Werburgh Chester. PartI. Remains, Historical and Literary Connected with the Palatine Counties of Lancaster and Chester. Volume 79 – New Series. The Chetham Society. Manchester. 1920. Pages xviii-xix, and 140-141.

Weis, Frederick Lewis, Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., William R. Beall, and Kaleen E. Beall. Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700, Eighth Edition. 2004.

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Douglas Richardson

In my post yesterday, I noted that Complete Peerage cited two sources for the marriage of Gilbert Fitz Richard and Alice de Clermont, namely Père Anselme and a note in an article by J.R. Planché published in Journal of the British Archaeological Association 26 (1870): 150–151.

I had the opportunity this morning of reading the note by J.R. Planché which was cited by Complete Peerage. I've copied the note below. Planché specifically discusses Père Anselme's comments. Planché's note may also be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=UDAGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA150

"The first of the Clares who wrote himself Earl of Hertford is said to have been Richard, eldest son of Gilbert de Tonbridge, by his wife Adeliza, who is stated by Guillaume de Jumièges to have been the daughter of a Comte de Clermont .... It would be desirable to affiliate this wife of Gilbert more distinctly, by showing which of the Counts of Clermont was her father. According to Père Anselme (Hist. Généalogique) she was the daughter of Hugh, first Comte de Clermont en Beauvaisis, by his wife Marguerite de Rouey, daughter of Hildouin, fourth Comte de Rouey, and Alex. de Chastillon; but though he states this in the genealogy of Clare, he gives no such daughter to Count Hugh in that of Clermont, naming only three daughters, — 1, Ermentrude, wife of Hugh, Earl of Chester; 2, Richilde, wife of Dreux, second Seigneur de Mello; and 3, Emma, wife of Matthieu, first Comte de Beaumont sur l'Oise. The fact of her parentage depends, therefore, at present on the statement of Guillaume de Jumièges, and the authenticity of a note appended to her charter in the Register of Thorney Abbey, and thus printed by Dugdale: 'Adelicia de Claramonte dicta (folio 11, cap. 9, parte 4).' The charter itself commences thus: 'Adeliz mater Comitis Gilberti omnibus amicis et hominibus suis Francie et Anglie salutem,' etc.; and ends with 'Sciendum est anterior haec esse facta coram Comite Gilberti et Waltero frater ejus.' But we have yet to identify her as the daugjhter of Count Hugh the first." END OF QUOTE

As we can see above, Planché was rather uncertain as to the correct parentage of Alice de Clermont, wife of Gilbert Fitz Richard, which fact was not indicated by Complete Peerage. Fortunately, since the time that Planché wrote his note, more evidence has been located to prove conclusively that Alice de Clermont was the daughter of Hugues, seigneur (not comte) of Clermont in Beauvaisis, and sister of Renaud, Count of Clermont in Beauvaisis.

One quick comment regarding the various names forms for Alice de Clermont: Hadalaidis, Adelicia, Adeliz. These are merely Latin forms for the given name Alice.
- show quoted text -

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5/2/12 Adrienne Boaz

I think the only source I've seen which stated that Hughes, Adelaide's father, was the Count of Clermont, was this:

"Hugues, surnommé de Monchi, Montiacensis, par Suger, parce qu'il possedait le château
de ce nom, du vivant de Renaud, son père, lui succeda au comte de Clermont."
Hughes, known as of Monchi, Montiacensis by Suger, because
he possessed the castle of that name, during the lifetime of Renaud, his father,
succeeded him to the Count of Clermont.

This was from pages 170-171 of:
de Saint-Allais, Nicolas Viton . L'Art de Vérifier les Dates des Faits Historiques, des
Chartes, des Chroniques, et Autres Anciens Monuments, Depuis la Naissance de Notre-Seigneur.
Tome Douzième. C.F. Patris. Paris.
1818.

Here are the biographies I've written of Hugues and Marguerite, minus the annoying citation codes. If anyone would like to know the sources I used for these bios, I will be very happy to provide them.

Hugues de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis, Count of Clermont (Renaud) was also known “Hugues de Monchi” or “de Montiacensis”, because he held the castle Montiacensis. He married Marguerite circa 1080, and was of Beauvaisis, and while his father was still alive, Hugues succeeded him as the count of Clermont. In 1099, while Ancel was the bishop of Beauvais, Hugues made a donation to the Abbey of Flay, which was also known as Saint Germer. Mathieu, Count of Beaumont-sur-Oise, who married Hugues’
daughter, Emme, received the dowry for Emme’s moiety of the land of Luzarches, about nineteen miles north of Paris, but he aspired to possess the entire estate, and in about 1102 seized the fortress there. An elderly man, Hugues was unable to constrain his son-in-law, and so he implored the aid of Louis the Fat, then prince of France, who, after attempting an unsuccessful diplomatic approach, eventually marched against Mathieu and besieged the tower of Luzarches with fire and weaponry. Louis installed knights to defend the keep, and then restored it to Hugues. After this, Louis the Fat assailed a second castle held by Mathieu, called Chambly, in Beauvaisis, but this effort was hampered by a downpour, and despite his attempt to maintain order, most of his troops disbanded the following dawn, amidst several tents being set afire. The men of Chambly made ??an offense in which several were taken prisoner, including Hugues, Guy de Senlis, and Herluin of Paris. Louis the Fat managed to escape, yet when the count of Beaumont discovered that Louis intended to return with an army thrice the size as the first, he submitted and allowed his father-in-law his freedom. Hugues’ death occurred after 1102. Marguerite de Roucy (Hilduin, Alix) has sometimes been called “Marguerite de Rameru”, but typically as “de Roucy”. She was born circa 1050 and was the mother of Adelaide de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis, Renaud II, Count of Clermont, Gui, who died in prison after being captured by the English in 1119, Raoul, Canon of Beauvàis, Emme, who married Mathieu, Ermentrude, who married Hugh d’Avranches, Earl of Chester, and Richilde, who married Dreux II, Lord of Mello en Beauvaisis.

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mk
some other mentions of the second marriage (gives first name as Herve)

MK

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5/2/12 Douglas Richardson

The evidence I cited is very specific. Bouchard de Montmorency is named as the 2nd husband of Alice de Clermont in f. 2r of Liber Vitae of Thorney Abbey (BL., Add. MS.
40,000. Jackson states this entry was made in Liber Vitae ante 1135-c. 1140. So it is very much contemporary evidence.

For Jackson's dating of specific LV entries, see the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=YxVgyLzgXpQC&pg=PA326

It doesn't matter how many secondary sources name Hervé de Montmorency as Alice de Clermont's 2nd husband. The contemporary evidence says her husband's name was Bouchard de Montmorency and also that her sister was Marguerite de Gerberoy. Muller, who I have elsewhere cited, confirms that Alice and Marguerite, wife of Gérard de Gerberoy, were both daughters of Hugues de Clermont, seigneur of Clermont.

For interest's sake, I've copied below Charles Cawley's comments regarding Bouchard de Montmorency and his third wife, Alice de Clermont. He identifies Bouchard de Montmorency as the 2nd husband of Alice de Clermont. But he adds: "The precise identity of Adelisa´s second husband has not yet been confirmed." That confirmation is now in hand.

One further note: As is common with many genealogists and historians, Charles Cawley uses the Latin form Adelisa for Alice de Clermont.
Alice is correct.

For an example of Alice de Clermont being styled "Aelicie," see the charter of Roger, Earl of Clare, published in the Stoke by Clare Cartulary in which Earl Roger refers to his grandmother as "Aelicie de Clermunt." [Reference: Harper-Bill & Mortimer, Stoke-by-Clare Priory Cartulary1 (1982): 22]. Neither Planché or Complete Peerage were aware of this charter evidence. Once again it confirms that Alice was a member of the Clermont family.

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Source: Charles Cawley, Medlands database
Weblink: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/PARIS%20REGION%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc319304480
BOUCHARD [III] de Montmorency, son of HERVE Seigneur de Montmorency & his wife Agnes --- (-Jerusalem [2 Jan], after 1124).

[m thirdly (after [1114/17]) as her second husband, ADELISA de Clermont, widow of GILBERT FitzRichard de Clare, daughter of HUGUES Comte de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis & his wife Marguerite de Ramerupt. The Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis refers to a sister of "comes Rainaldus" as husband of "Gillebertus, filius Richardi Anglici"[538]. Guillaume de Jumièges records that the wife of Gilbert was the daughter of the Comte de Clermont[539]. Her second marriage into the Montmorency family is confirmed by the charter dated under which Robert Bishop of Lincoln confirms previous donations to Thorney, including one by “Adelidæ de Montemoraci” of “…terræ in Randa quas Turgisius tenuit et Toui prius dederat”[540], which clearly refers back to the earlier undated charter under which “Adeliz, uxor Gilberti filii Ricardi, et Gillebertus et Walterus et Baldewinus et Rohaisia pueri Gilberti” donated property “quod Tovi dedit…et in Randa…quas Turgisius tenebat” to Thorney Monastery[541]. The precise identity of Adelisa´s second husband has not yet been confirmed. According to Duchesne, Adelisa´s second husband was Hervé, son of Bouchard [III] Seigneur de Montmorency and his second wife, but he cites no primary
source on which this statement is based[542]. As noted below, the first marriage of Mathieu [I] de Montmorency, who would have been Hervé´s older half-brother born from their father´s first marriage, is dated to [1126]. This suggests the birth of Mathieu [I] in [1095/1105]. If that estimated date range is correct, any half-brothers born from his father´s second marriage would probably have been too young to have married Adelisa. In addition, given Adelisa´s prominent family background and first marriage, it is unlikely that her second husband would have been the younger son of the seigneur de Montmorency. As Adelisa had several children by her first husband, she would have been considerably older than her second husband if he had been a younger son of Bouchard [III]. A more likely case is that Adelisa´s second husband was Bouchard [III] himself, whose age and position would have been more appropriate for the marriage.]

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5/2/12 Douglas Richardson

Interested parties (and I know everyone is interested) will doubtless enjoy reading John Horace Round's well written discussion of the "Montmorency Imposture" publiished in his book entitled Feudal England (1895): 519-527. This material may be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=7ZEQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA519

Mr. Round who was a cut above everyone before or since identifies Alice de Clermont's 2nd husband as [?Bouchard} de Montmorency. I don't see, however, how he arrives at his conclusion that Alice's husband was [?Bouchard] de Montmorency. Whatever his reasons, he clearly rejects the notion that Alice de Clermont's 2nd husband was Hervé de Montmorency.

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5/2/12 wjhonson

http://books.google.com/books?id=2zgIAAAAQAAJ&dq=hugh%20count%20of%20clermont&pg=PA283#v=onepage&q=hugh%20count%20of%20clermont&f=false
5/3/12 Jan Wolfe

It appears that the contemporary documents cited so far specify neither the position of seigneur nor that of count with respect to Hugh of Clermont. Could someone please explain the difference in the duties, rights, and powers of a seigneur and those of a count in this era? Also, how did one become a count, as distinguished from a seigneur of a place, in this era?

The chapter in the book by Round (Feudal England: Historical Studies on the XIth and XIIth Centuries, cited in an earlier post in this discussion) about Alice's son Hervey is interesting, but it is disappointing in that Round does not fully quote the charters, provide their dates, nor explain all of the reasoning necessary for his conclusions. An earlier chapter in the same book (p. 468, "Walter Tirel and his Wife") is also interesting and better explains the reasoning Round used for his conclusions concerning Tirel and his wife. It also provides a useful example of the importance of carefully considering the wording of old documents in the context of other documents by the same author or of the same era. http://books.google.com/books?id=7ZEQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA468

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5/3/12 Douglas Richardson

As I stated in an earlier post, there is a good account of Hugues de Clermont, seigneur of Clermont, published in Luçay, Le Comté de Clermont en Beauvaisis (1878): 9–11. This source may be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=QMonAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA9

On page 11, Luçay specifically states the following:

"Ni Suger, ni les chartes que nous avons eues sous les yeux, ne donnent à Hugues le titre de comte; elles le qualifient seulement seigneur de Clermont.” END OF QUOTE.

Elsewhere, I note that Lépinois gives an account of the Counts of Clermont in his book, Recherches historiques et critiques sur l'ancient Comté et les Comtes de Clermont en Beauvoisis (1877). Lépinois treats Hugues de Clermont as a count. However, on page 152, he cites a record which appears to refer to Hugues de Clermont as seigneur de Clermont:

"Il y avait à Breuil-le-Vert un beau prieuré-cure sous le vocable de saint Martin, fondé par Hugues, seigneur de Clermont, qui le donna, vers 1096-1097, à l'abbaye de Saint-Germer, du consentment de ses fils Renaud et Guy et à la solicitation d'Anselme II, évêque de Beauvais."
END OF QUOTE

This information may be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=pOVtY1tKF6oC&pg=PA152

On page 421, he provides a transcript of the actual charter issued by Hugues de Clermont, in which Hugues specifically styles himself "Hugo, Clarimontis dns" [i.e., Hugues, seigneur of Clermont]. Lépinois dates that charter as being "before November 1099."

This transcript may be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=pOVtY1tKF6oC&pg=PA421

"Hugo, Clarimontis dns" does not equal Hugues, Count of Clermont. Even so Lépinois tells us in his introduction to this transcript that this was a confirmation charter of Hugues, Count of Clermont. Simply put, the transcript of the charter doesn't agree with Lépinois' statement.

P.S. Interested parties might appreciate knowing that Hugues de Clermont's son and heir, Renaud II, Count of Clermont (who witnessed the charter of his father mentioned above), was the step-father of the Ur-Mother of the newsgroup, Isabel de Vermandois.