Citation
  • Wilson, Alan, "Medieval Genealogy Newsgroup: The Wives of Robert de Quincy" (GEN-MEDIEVAL Mailing List, Aug 1995).
Data
  • Category: Research
Detail
  • Author: Wilson, Alan
  • Publisher: GEN-MEDIEVAL Mailing List, Aug 1995
Page: 19950817
  • The Wives of Robert de Quincy, Alan B. Wilson, August 17, 1995
  • Text: From: "Alan B. Wilson" Subject: Re: The wives of Robert de Quincy (?)
    Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 21:58:41 -0700

    Tom Camfield asks whether the Robert de Quincy reported as marrying Hawise of Chester (Weis, line 54) is the same person as the Robert de Quincy who married Elen ferch Llewelyn (Weis, line 236).

    I think the answer is no: The Robert who married Hawise of Chester is the uncle of the Robert who married Elen ferch Llewelyn. The statement in Weis (line 54-28) that

    "Robert de Quincy, son of Saher de Quincy and Margaret de Beaumont (53-27); m. Hawise of Chester (125-29) . . ."

    would seem to be a rare error.
                        Saher de Quincy = Matilda de Senlis \ St. Liz
                                    |
          ______________________________________
          |                                    |
Saher II de Quincy = Ascelina Peverel  Robert de Quincy = Orabile de Leuchars
                                                       |
          ______________________________________________
         |                                       |

Saher IV de Quincy = Margaret Beaumont   Robert de Quincy = Hawise of Chester
                   |                                      |
                   |-Robert d.s.p. 1217                   |-Margaret
                   |-Roger                                |-Roger
                   |-Robert m. Elen ferch Llewelyn
                   |-Hawise
                   |-Loretta
                   |-John
                   |-Reginald
                   |-Orabella

    In Cokayne"s "Complete Peerage." in the article on "Winchester," xii(2), p. 748, n. "g," it says:

    "His [Saher IV's] yr. br. Robert, who d. before 1232. m. Hawise, suo jure (after his death) Countess of Lincoln, sister and coh. of Ranulph, Earl of Chester and Lincoln, by whom he was ancestor, through his da. and h. Margaret, of the Lacy Earls of Lincoln. See ante, vol. iii, p. 169, note sub Chester [1181]. and vol. vii, pp. 675-77,679, sub Lincoln, where, however, Robert is confused with his nephew Robert, 1st s. and h. ap. of Saher IV, who d.s.p. 1217 (see p. 751, note "a" below)."

    Note that Weis (in line 236-8) notes

    "He [Robert de Quincy who m. Elen] was the 2nd son named Robert, the first d.s.p. 1217. . .."

    I list eight children for Saher IV de Quincy, Earl of Winchester, and Margaret de Beaumont:
    1. Robert d.s.p. 1217;
    2. Roger, II Earl of Winchester, m1 Helen of Galloway (Weis 53-28),
    m2 Alianore de Ferrers, m3 Maud de Bohun;
    3. Robert m. Elen ferch Llewelyn d.s.p.m. (Weis 236-8);
    4. Hawise m. Hugh de Vere (Weis 60-28);
    5. Loretta m. William de Valoynes
    6. John;
    7. Reginald;
    8. Orabella \ Arabella m. Sir Richard Harcourt (Weis 56-28).

    Saher IV's brother Robert and Hawise of Chester have:
    1. Margaret m. John de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln (Weis 54-29);
    2. Roger m. Eleanor de Vallibus.

    Robert (3rd s. of Sayer IV & Margaret) and Elen ferch Llewelyn have:
    1. Anne (became a nun);
    2. Joan m. Humphrey de Bohun;
    3. Hawise m. Baldwin Wake (Weis 236-9).

    Alan Wilson
Page: 19950819
  • The Wives of Robert de Quincy, Todd A. Farmerie, August 19, 1995
  • Text: From: "Todd A. Farmerie" Subject: Re: The wives of Robert de Quincy (?)
    Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:38:38 GMT

    In a previous article, reitwiesner@delphi.com () says:

    >>Tom Camfield writes:

    >>Weis, line 54:
    >>Robert de Quincy, son of Saher de Quincy and Margaret de Beaumont (and shown in line 53 to be brother of Roger de Quincy), m. Hawise of Chester, 1180 - 1242/3.

    >>Weis, line 236:
    >>Ellen, d/o Llewellyn (sic.) ap Iorwerth, m. (2) John le Scot; m. (2) Robert de Quincy, d. 1257, son of Saire de Quincy and brother or Roger de Quincy.

    >>Neither line mentions a second marriage for Robert de Quincy. I am assuming we are talking about the same Robert and that he married (1) Hawise and (2) Ellen. Is this correct?

    >Nope. Robert who married Hawise of Chester was an uncle of Robert who married Elen. See (for example) Schwennicke III:708.

    This solution was suggested by Painter based on the fact that Roger, younger son of Saher, inherited Winchester rather than Robert and Hawise's daughter, who married John de Lacy. This would tend to suggest that Robert, husband of Hawise, could not have been oldest son of Saher. However, Doris Grace Roth cites a conveyance in The Genealogist (5:221-5) which shows that Robert, husband of Hawise, was son of Saher. Dealing with the manors of Buckley, Grantesset, Bradeham, and Herdwick, and names "Saherus de Quency Comes Wintoniae" (Winchester), "Roberto de Quency Filio meo & Haeredi" and finally, "Hawisise Sorori Comitis Cestriae, Uxori ejusdem Roberti." Assuming that this document is authentic, and I have no reason to doubt it, then it can only be concluded that Robert was, in fact, eldest son of Saher de Quincy and not a younger brother. But then why didn't the Lacy's get Winchester? Probably because both Saher and Robert were in rebellion against John at the times of their deaths, and the naming of Roger de Quency as Earl of Winchester essentially represents a new grant of title given to Roger in exchange for his loyalty (and for paying off his father's debts to the king).

    Todd
Personal Names
PersonClaimDetailEvidence
Hawise de QuincyNameHawise [S761]
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Hawise de Quincy Countess of LincolnNameHawise , Countess of Lincoln [S761]
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Hawise de Quincy Countess of LincolnNameHawise of Chester [S756] [S761] [S917]
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Hugh de Vere 4th Earl of OxfordNameHugh de Vere 4th Earl of Oxford [S756] [S761] [S917] [S925]
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John de Lacy, Earl of LincolnNameJohn de Lacy , Earl of Lincoln [S761] [S925]
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Margaret de QuincyNameMargaret [S761] [S775:VII.675]
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Margaret de BeaumontNameMargaret Beaumont [S761]
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Margaret de BeaumontNameMargaret de Beaumont [S756] [S761]
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Matilda de SenlisNameMatilda de Senlis [S761] [S917] [S954]
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Matilda de SenlisNameMatilda de St. Liz [S761]
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Orabile de LeucharsNameOrabile de Leuchars [S761]
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Robert de Quincy I, Lord of BuckleyNameRobert de Quincy [S756] [S761] [S910] [S917]
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Saher de Quincy I, of Buckley and DaventryNameSaher de Quincy [S761] [S917] [S954]
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Saher de Quincy IV, 1st Earl of WinchesterNameSaher de Quincy IV, 1st Earl of Winchester [S761] [S917]
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Events & Attributes
PersonClaimDateDetailAgeEvidence
Robert de QuincyDeathbef 1232 [S761]
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Hawise de Quincy Countess of LincolnTitleOct 27, 12326th Countess of Lincoln [S756] [S761] [S775:VII.675] [S954]
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