Gilbert de Lacy - Greybeard's Ghosts

Commentary

Cawley: "The problem of ascertaining the precise parentage of Gilbert de Lacy is complex. It appears that Gilbert can be identified with the unnamed Templar “nepos” of Hugh de Lacy who is recorded in the History of Lanthony abbey. Assuming that “nepos” can be interpreted as nephew, Gilbert was the son of one of Hugh’s siblings. A manuscript which narrates the descents of the founders of Lanthony Abbey names “Gilbertus de Lacy” as son of Emma (supposed daughter of Walter de Lacy) and her unnamed husband. Wightman highlights that this is a 16th century document of dubious validity and that no earlier charter evidence corroborates Emma’s existence let alone Gilbert’s parentage. He highlights that Gilbert succeeded in regaining the “vast majority of the Lacy estates” held in England by this branch of the family, suggesting that his right was therefore superior to the branch’s descendants through the female line, and concludes that “that would make him a son either of Roger de Lacy or of Hugh”. Wightman prefers Roger to Hugh, considering the probable co-identity of Gilbert with Hugh’s unnamed Templar “nepos”. Wightman’s theory appears supported by Gilbert holding a share of the family’s Normandy fiefs in [1133], but Gilbert’s acquisition of the English estates was piecemeal, starting many years after he is first recorded in England, and does not appear to have been based on prior right by heredity. Concerning the Norman lands, one difficulty is determining how Gilbert acquired his share. Roger’s English fiefs, confiscated by King William II, passed to his younger brother Hugh. Roger settled in Normandy, where he led Duke Robert’s army and presumably held part of the family fiefs until Duke Robert was defeated by King Henry I at Tinchebrai in 1106. After King Henry assumed control of the duchy, his well-known vindictiveness towards his enemies suggests that Roger’s share of the Norman fiefs would have been transferred elsewhere. King Henry’s continuing enmity towards Roger is demonstrated by the king’s donation of property held by "Walterus de Lacy et Rogerus et Hugo filii eius" to St Guthlac’s, Hereford by charter dated to [1107/22] as noted earlier, which also suggests that the king’s relations with Roger’s brother Hugh were no better. All this would suggest that Gilbert would not automatically have been permitted to inherit the estates if he had been Roger’s son. The dating of Gilbert’s acquisition of the family’s Norman fiefs cannot be ascertained, but it presumably occurred some time in King Henry’s later years. Some moderation in the king’s treatment of the family is shown by the marriage of Sibylla de Lacy to Payn FitzJohn, but no source has been found indicating the circumstances of Gilbert’s rehabilitation. The persistent rivalry between Gilbert and Sibylla’s heirs regarding the Lacy’s English estates (as indicated by the agreement dated to [1147/49]) suggests that their respective claims were of similar weight, that both were therefore either male line or female line descendants of the Lacy family, and that they were cousins not brother and sister. If one was a male line, and the other a female line descendant, the descent of the former would presumably have outweighed the latter’s claim. This is consistent with Wightman’s hypothesis, but does not exclude the possibility of their being children of two of Hugh’s sisters. Given all these complexities, reaching a definitive conclusion about Gilbert’s parentage would be speculative."

Family

Claim	Detail	Evidence
Child +	Hugh de Lacy, Lord of Meath (e1133-1185) [S1006] [S3176]	research

Attributes

Claim	Detail	Evidence
Gender	Male
Name	Gilbert de Lacy [S1006] [S3176]	research

Timeline

Claim	Date	Detail	Age	Evidence
Birth	est 1101 (1091-1112)
Death	May 1160 - 1163	[S3176]		research

Sources

Index	Title
[S1006]	Cawley, Charles, "Foundation of Medieval Genealogy (Medieval Lands - Ireland)" (v4.0 Updated 13 October 2019) (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/IRELAND.htm).
[S3176]	Cawley, Charles, "Foundation of Medieval Genealogy (Medieval Lands - English Untitled Nobility L-O)" (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/enguntlo.htm).

Note

Paul Bulkley in an email to the GED-MEDIVAL mailing list on June 25, 2010 listed the follwing conenctions:

"Wightman and other sources suggest that Robert de Lascy had no children at the time of his death 1193 at Clitheroe. However Charter records of Chapel St John Pontefract VI and other sources suggest that Gilbert de Lascy was probably Robert's son as follows: 1190 Gilbert de Lascy son of Robert de Lascy grants a bovat land in Barneby and 2 bovat in Harewood. Witness: Robert Lascy et alia. [Note: Dodsworth questions the possibility that this Gilbert is not the son of Robert but of another Lascy line]. 1190 Henry Vernoil of Kellington grants to Gilbert Lascy and the monks of Pontefract. 1190 Robert de Lascy confirms 2 bovats Great Marsden. Witness Gilbert de Lascy et alia. 1192 Thomas Presibiter de Harewood grants to Gilbert de Lascy 2 bovats in Harewood.
Witness: Hospitatis Gospatric de Salesburi, son Roger Salesburi. Further records from other sources suggest the possibility that Gilbert de Lascy was the first Lascy of Cromwellbotham: 1160/1170 Gilbert de Lascy (Cestria) - first Lascy of Cromwellbotham. 1180 Gilbert de Lascy witness to Charter Robert son of Hugh Swillington (Slepehill). 1190 Gilbert de Lascy witness to Charter of Jordan Foliot. 1190 Gilbert de Lascy (Horton) and Gilbert de Lascy (Lanc) witnesses to Charter of Hugh Prior Pontefract. 1210 Roger Lascy enfeoffed Gilbert de Lascy of Cromwellbotham in the marriage with Agnes. (History of Lancashire V1). 1200s Gilbert de Lascy of Cromwellbotham held 1/6th Fee Rochdale lordship in the right of wife Agnes de Owram (Farrer Early York)
Note: The 1210 record probably applies to a later generation of the Gilbert de Lascy being considered. Perhaps the most significant record pertinent to Gilbert de Lascy's relationship to Robert de Lascy is the 1190 Charter of Hugh Prior of Pontefract to which two Gilberts were recorded as witnesses - Gilbert de Lascy of Horton and Gilbert de Lascy of Lanc. Also what is also significant is that the legend of Robert Buckley rector of chapel of Clitheroe at the time of the death of Robert de Lascy makes no mention of heirs. However if Robert de Lascy had a son Gilbert who died before his father, there would be no mention of Gilbert. Robert Buckley's father was Geoffrey Dean of Whalley with at least two or three earlier generations acting as Dean of Whalley. It has been suggested that Robert Buckley was related to the Lascy family through an earlier connection."

In response John P. Ravilious in an email to the GED-MEDIVAL mailing list on June 26, 2010 stated the follownig:

"As I have it, C. T. Clay made a good case for the strong possibility that Gilbert de Lacy was an illegitimate son of Robert de Lacy, who definitely d.s.p.l. His article on The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and Leventhorope (in Miscellanea of the Thoresby Society, XXVIII:468-490). Despite Dodsworth's concerns, this mention of a charter of Gilbert de Lascy as son of Robert de Lascy _and_ his granting 2 bovates in " Harewood " is I think quite important. This was most likely Great Harwood ("Harewude" in early documents), re: which there is charter evidence linking the land to the Lacy family of Pontefract. Henry de Lacy granting the manor of Great Harwood to Richard Fiton for knight's service, and this was confirmed by Henry's son Robert ca. 1180 to hold by the service of 1/4 of a knight's fee [VCH Lancs. 6:337-344]. I lose any subsequent mention of the overlordship of Harwood, but think you have found evidence that this land or a portion of same was given to 'Gilbert de Lascy son of Robert de Lascy'."

Paul Bulkley continues in an email to the GED-MEDIVAL mailing list on June 28/30, 2010:

Following is the Charter of St John Pontefract and Dodsworth's comment:

Carta Ilberti de Lasceyo Cir.1190.

[English: Know that I, Gilbert de Lasci, son of Robert de Lasci, have given, &c, to the monks serving God at Pontefract, a bovat of land in Barneby with the toft belonging to it, which Ulvet the smith held, and with the toft which widow Quenilda held, for the salvation of my soul and that of my lord Henry Folioth &c, free and quit, &c, except forinsic service, the eightieth part of a fee; and also two bovats of land in Harwood with the appurtenances, that is to say those bovats which I, Gilbert de Lascy, have held of Thomas the priest, &c; free and quit, &c except forinsic service, paying three shillings and three pence to the said Thomas and his heirs on the morrow of St Giles. Reserving his commonage.]

[Latin: Sciant presentes et posteri, quod ego, Ilbertus de Lasci, filius Roberti de Lasci, dedi et concessi et hac presenti mea carta confirmavi Deu et sancto Johanni de Ponetfracto, et priori et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus, unam bovatam terre in Barneby, cum tofto petinente ad illam bovatuam quam Vivet faber tenuit, et cum tofto quod Quenilda vidua tenuit, pro salute anima mee et domine mei Henrici + Folioth et omnium meorum, in puram et perpetuum elemosinam, liberam et quietam ab omni seculari et exactione, preter forense servitium, scilicet octogesimam partem unius militis; et insuper duas bovatas terre in Harawda cum omnibus pertinentiis eisdem bovatis. Illas scilicet bovatas quas ego Gilvertus de Lasci tenui de Thoma presbitero. Has bovatas dedi predictis priori et monachis de Pontefracto, in puram et perpetuam elemosinam liberas et quietas ab omne servitio seculari forense servitium; scilicet reddendo annuatim predicto Thome vel heredibus suis, in crastino sancti Egidii tres solidos et tres denarios. Ego vero Gilebertus habebo communionem in pasturis meis propiis averiis.]

Testibus: Roberto de Lasci, Ada de Rainevilla tunc senscallo, Ada de Prestuna, Willelme de Bulli (Busli), Thoma filio Petri, Willelmi de Lungvillers, Ricardo de Lewis, Thoma filio Ada de Rainevilla, Peter clerico, Elya Camberlano, Hugone de Melwda, Randulpho Coco, Ada Pincerna, Ivone Marescallo (Eudo Longvillers, Ivo the Marshall) et pluribus aliis.

Dodsworth observations of the above Charter:

There is an imperfect copy of No 5 (this Charter) in Lansdowne 207A, in which the scribe, unable to read the words "p'sbito" and "s'ti Egidri" left blanks in his MS which have never been filled. Excepting in that instance I do not know that this important document has been hitherto copied.

It may be noticed that this cross before the name of Folioth in the margin of the Chartulary is close to the word which commences a line, is very much above the position. But in the actual charter of this grant to Gilbert de Lascy there is really not the slightest pretence that the grantor was a de Lascy of Pontefract; or that Robert de Lasci was his father. It is probable that the later Robert was the signatory who places his name first; but there are two quite fatal objections to the document in its present form, drawn from its appearance in the chartulary itself. The eleventh word "Robert", with due distrust, left blank in the original, and filled up only by a much later and reckless hand, probably as late as 1300 or 1320, while the seventh word"Ilbertus" was at first "Gilbertus" as the second mention of the name in the charter is still. The contemporary rubricated headline was, however, always "Ilbertus". Thus the charter itself speaks with but a faltering voice, and forces upon us the conclusion that in truth the document is of another Gilbert de Lascy, of the Lancashire family, who belonged to the early part of the last decade of the twelth century; and that so as to fit it in for insertion in the chartulary among the seigniorial documents to which it was thought to belong, it was subjected to what appeared to be necessary corrections, which now expose it to the charge of anachromism.