https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/EzRVcadWlh8

Patricia Dark, in her excellent May 2005 thesis entitled "The Career of Matilda of Boulogne as Queen and Countess in England, 1135-1152," consulted archives of St. John's College, Cambridge. One relates to the foundation, by Queen Matilda and King Stephen, of the nunnery of Lillechurch for their youngest daughter Mary to preside over.

Passages on page 62 of Dr. Dark’s work caught my eye:

as Abbot Hugo of St. John's noted in a charter after Matilda's death:

...that exchange was made at the insistence of Queen Matilda on behalf of her daughter Mary a consecrated nun, that being desired and confirmed by King Stephen and his son Count Eustace, who moreover by the arbitration of the queen pacified Henry of Merch by making grants of his choice overseas in return for East Donyland and surrendering that land to the abbot and monks of Colchester in the baronial court of East Donyland warranting it in perpetuity to them from himself and his successors.'

F: 'Hoc escambium factum ex instantia regine Mathildis gratia filie sug Marie deo sacratg volentibus et confirmantibus illud rege Stephano et filio eius cornite Eustachio. Qui etiam pro arbitrio regine pacaverunt Henricum de Merch redditibus transmarinis ad suam voluntatem pro Dunilanda et redditam ab eo coram baronibus Dunilandam tradiderunt abbati et monachis Colecestre in perpetuum warantizandam eis de se ac de suis successoribus'.

At the beginning of footnote 300 of the Latin transcription, it has the letter F. I then consulted Table I near the end of the thesis, and it shows “F” to be
SJ D46.22 Lillechurch; Chirograph: Lillechurch and St. John's.

In the bibliography section shows the following Manuscript and Archival Sources:

St. John's College, Cambridge Archives, D48.22: Chirograph between Lillechurch Priory and St. John's Abbey, Colchester.
St. John's College, Cambridge Archives, D48.6: William de Warenne's confirmation of the foundation of Lillechurch Priory.
St. John's College, Cambridge Archives, D48.98: Charter of Archbishop Theobald, announcing the creation of Lillechurch Priory.

Specifically, which one of these has the record I am seeking? My goal is to obtain a high quality color digital scan of this record involving Mary, daughter of King Stephen and Queen Matilda. One thing I noticed, Table I says “D46.22” but the manuscript sources has it as “D48.”

Another item caught my eye:

Avrom Saltman, Theobald, Archbishop of Canterbury (London: University of London, Athlone Press, 1956), pp. 379-80: “... moniales Stretfordie inpresentia nostra et venerabilis fratris nostri Hilarii Cicestrensi episcopi et Matild[is] regine et Clar[embaldis] abbatis de Faversham et aliarum religiosarum personarum, ea conditione manerium de Lillecerchia quod cum Maria filia regis Stephani ex dono ipsius regis et regine susciperint, reddiderunt et cum appenditiis suis quietum penitus clamaverunt, ut moniales Sancti Sulpicii quas cum predicta Maria receptas, propter ordinis difficultatem et morum dissonantiam,ferre non valebant ab ipsis prorsus recederent et ecclesiam de Stratford a se omni reclamatione sepulta penitus liberarent. Hac igitur facta transactione collectis sarcinulis et omnibus que ad se spectabant comportatis Maria sepedicta regis filia cum monialibus suis ecclesiam Stratfordie penitus liberam dereliquit et in manerio suo de Lillecherchia se tanquam in proprietate sua recepit.”

(trans.: ...the nuns of Stratford, in our presence and that of our venerable brother Hilary bishop of Chichester and Queen Matilda and Clarembald abbot of Faversham and other religious persons returned and wholly quitclaimed the manor of Lillechurch with its appurtenances, which they received with Mary the daughter of King Stephen from the gift of the king and queen, on condition that the nuns of St. Sulpice who received it with the aforesaid Mary because the nuns could not take it on account of the stringency of the order and the conflict with its customs, should now leave them and entirely quit the church of Stratford after reclaiming all their buried dead. Now this transaction having been made, and they having collected their belongings and gathered up everything of theirs, Mary the said daughter of the king and her nuns have left entirely the church of Stratford and have settled themselves in the manor of Lillechurch as their own property.)

Question I have: did this appear in Saltman’s work, word for word as indicated in footnote 296 of Dr. Dark’s work, or was it drawn from the Cambridge archives of St. John's College? I would definitely appreciate knowing the manuscript number and folio it appears in.

Thank you very much in advance for any help you can offer.

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Perhaps D46 is a misprint, since D48 is repeated in the bibliography. I suggest you email the archivist at St John's to make sure.

I don't have access to a copy of Saltman's book, but as I recall he did print the Latin texts of many charters. You could try searching for strings of the Latin quoted by Dark here:
https://books.google.com.au/books?redir_esc=y&id=jCcmAQAAMAAJ

Peter Stewart

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Hi Peter:

Thanks for your detailed reply. Very much appreciated.

Speaking of Marie, Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands site shows her date of death as 1182 but no source citation is given for it. I've searched online, hoping to locate a credible source but all I am turning up are more Internet postings with just the date, no source. In fact, I came across this entry on Wikipedia showing an exact date of 25 July 1182 (again, no source). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_I,_Countess_of_Boulogne

Any ideas?

Thanks again.

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For whatever it's worth, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography also gives 1182 as the year of her death. They have a long list of sources for the article (by S. P. Thompson), but the sources aren't tagged to specific matters of fact.

Patrick Nielsen Hayden

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John Higgins

On Monday, July 17, 2017 at 10:29:59 AM UTC-7, The Hoorn wrote:
> And those sources are?

Sources for the ODNB article in question (Mary of Blois, countess of Boulogne):

Sources

M. Bouquet and others, eds., Recueil de historiens des Gaules et de la France / Rerum Gallicarum et Francicarum scriptores, 24 vols. (1738–1904), vol. 13, pp. 185, 277, 314, 414, 422, 435, 517, 705; vol. 15, p. 867; vol. 16, p. 144 · M. A. E. Green, Lives of the princesses of England, 1 (1849), 191–212 · M. A. E. Wood, ed., Letters of royal and illustrious ladies of Great Britain, 3 vols. (1846), vol. 1, pp. 11 · D. de Sainte-Marthe and others, eds., Gallia Christiana in provincias ecclesiasticas distributa, 16 vols. (1715–1865), vol. 10, pp. 1318–19; vol. 14, p. 787 · L. Delisle and others, eds., Recueil des actes de Henri II, roi d'Angleterre et duc de Normandie, concernant les provinces françaises et les affaires de France, 4 vols. (Paris, 1909–27), vol. 1, pp. 143–4 · L. d'Achery, Spicilegium, sive, Collectio veterum aliquot scriptorum qui in Galliae bibliothecis detiluerant, 2 (1723), 812, 818 · E. Baluze, Histoire généalogique de la maison d'Auvergne, 2 vols. (Paris, 1708), vol. 1, p. 89; vol. 2, pp. 97–8 · Matthaei Parisiensis, monachi Sancti Albani, Historia Anglorum, sive … Historia minor, ed. F. Madden, 3 vols., Rolls Series, 44 (1886–9) · A. Saltman, Theobald, archbishop of Canterbury (1956), 52–4, 379–80 · P. Oudegherst, Les chroniques et annales de Flandres (1571), 135 · J. H. Round, ‘Faramus of Boulogne’, The Genealogist, new ser., 12 (1895–6), 145–51 · J. H. Round, Studies in peerage and family history (1901), 147–80 · P. Jaffé, ed., Regesta pontificum Romanorum, rev. G. Wattenbach, 2nd edn, 2 (Leipzig, 1888); repr. (1956), no. 10793 · P. Anger, ‘Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Sulpice-la-Forêt, Ille-et-Vilaine’, Bulletin et Mémoires de la Société Archéologique du Département d'Ille-et-Vilaine, 34–5, 37–40 (1903–11); repr. in P. Anger, Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Sulpice-la-Forêt, Ille-et-Vilaine ([Rennes], 1911) · H. G. D. Liveing, Records of Romsey Abbey, 907–1558 (1906) · St John Cam., MSS 46.27, 46.58
Archives

St John Cam., MSS 46.27, 46.58

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Now you have sent me to the ODNB entry for Marie, and incidentally I see there that references given to documents in the archives of St John's Cambridge are to 46.27 and 46.58.

According to the article, "Mary returned to the religious life, entering the Benedictine nunnery of St Austrebert near Montreuil, apparently as a simple nun ... Mary died and was buried at the nunnery in 1182". No date is given, and I don't know that any is recorded - if a countess Marie died on 25 July, this may be one of a number of different women unless perhaps it came from a source in the neighbourhood of Montreuil. But in that case you would suppose the identification might have been widely accepted for centuries, and it hasn't. I don't know of a more specific reason to doubt it, or to support it, though dates of death are frequently grabbed out of the ether by people who want to fill in blanks so I would be cautious with this one.

Peter Stewart

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More than cautious, Hans - the date 25 July appears suspect as it may
come from Ralph de Diceto, who said that Mathieu I of Boulogne (Marie's
husband) was fatally wounded on 25 July (St James's day) in 1173
("Boloniensis comes in festo Sancti Jacobi a quodam marchione vulneratur
ad mortem"), see p 373 here:
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZFQ4AQAAMAAJ

Mathieu died on 14 July according to the obituary of Beaulieu abbey, see
https://archive.org/stream/recueildeshistor04acad#page/338/mode/1up

Peter Stewart

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I should have read Ralph de Diceto further - his naming of St James's day is too pat by half, since he goes on with a "serves him right" account that Mathieu (who had joined the rebellion of Henry the young king) had sworn fealty to the old king (Henry II) five years earlier on the same day while touching sacred relics including a hand of St James ("Quod divino judicio factum esse pro certo cognoscimus. Nam quia propositis et tactis sacrosanctis reliquiis, inter quas et manus Sancti Jacobi praesentialiter habebatur, quinquennio jam transacto in festo Sancti Jacobi fidelitatem patris regis juraverat, et, sicut modo apparuit, in omnium oculis dejeraverat, in ultionem tanti sceleris, in die festo Sancti Jacobi letali vulnere percussus est.")

Ralph also placed Mathieu's wounding at Arques (see p 387) whereas several other sources say that it was at Driencourt, that is around 125 kms away. I suppose it is possible that he was wounded at Driencourt and died at Arques on the way home to Boulogne, but "a quodam marchione vulneratur" doesn't sound to me as if Ralph knew the details thoroughly.

Peter Stewart

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I'm glad you raised this, Hans, as I had not noticed before that there is an apparent discrepancy between sources about the dating of Marie's return to the cloister.

She married Mathieu in 1160, and in 1171 he married his second wife (Aliénor of Aquitaine's namesake niece of Vermandois, countess of Saint-Quentin). Marie is variously reported as going back into a nunnery in 1169 and in 1170/71, but it is fairly clear that the late part of this range is a mistake and that she parted from Mathieu in 1169/70.

Lambert of Ardres, writing ca 1190/1200, stated this plainly ("dominice incarnationis anno 1169. Quo anno regis Stephani quondam filia, quandoque Bolonie dicta comitissa, habitum religionis apud Meschinense monasterium resumpsit, et ecclesie, que pro ea interdicte fuerant, absolute"), here:
http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00000866.html?pageNo=596

However, also in the 1190s André of Marchiennes ostensibly placed this a year or so later, according to the editions of his chronicle printed by Raphael de Beauchamps in 1633 and an excerpt in *Recueil des historiens*
vol 13 (respectively under the 34th and 36th regnal year of Louis VII, but both indicating August 1170-August 1171 by count-back from later entries). The wording used was very similar to Lambert's ("Maria, filia regis Stephani, habitum religionis, quem a multis annis abiecerat, resumpsit"). There is no mention that she resumed the habit at Messines, as stated by Lambert.

André's chronicle was largely copied by William of Andres early in the 13th century, and this information was given word-for-word under 1169 citing André as the source, here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00000866.html?pageNo=709
The editor (note 6) mistakenly denied that this came from André of Marchiennes.

William of Andres stated that Marie died in 1182 at Montreuil and was buried there, in the 13th year after she had resumed the habit as a nun ("Anno Domini 1182 ... Maria, filia Stephani regis Anglorum, quondam abbatissa, postea Bolonie comitissa, tertio decimo anno postquam resumpserat habitum sanctimonialis, apud Monasteriolum moritur et sepelitur"), here:
http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00000866.html?pageNo=716

This indicates that Marie had gone back into the cloister by Easter 1170 (new style) and died perhaps by Easter 1182 (28 March), or possibly 1183 (17 April) if William was not accurate in his ordinal count of years (a very common failing of chroniclers, who were often no better than me at simple arithmetic). If she was ever a nun at Messines (in Flanders), as stated by Lambert, this must have been only temporary, but it was probably an error as Montreuil was within her hereditary sphere.

Peter Stewart

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Douglas Richardson

Jul 18

There is a well written biography of Mary/Marie of England, wife of Mathieu, Count of Boulogne, published in Green, Lives of the Princesses of England 1 (1857): 191–214. This material may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=5DVLAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA191

Regarding Mary's return to the cloister and her date and place of death, Green says the following:

"He [Count Mathieu] returned home, and having, with many penitential expressions, asked forgiveness from his wife, gave his full consent for her return to the cloister ... The place she selected for her seclusion, was the Benedictine nunnery of St. Austrebert, near Montreuil, which she entered as a simple nun in the year 1169 ... In the year 1181, the young Countess Ida was married to Gerard, Earl of Gueldres, but the bridegroom only survived his nuptials a few months; and his death was followed, in the ensuing year, by that of her mother, the Lady Mary of Blois, at the comparatively early age of forty-five. She was buried with the utmost privacy in the nunnery of St. Austrebert." END OF QUOTE.

Green cites the following sources for Mary's death date and place of death:

Chron. Andrensis Monast., Acher's Spicilegium, vol. ii, p. 312, Anselm. Gemblac., p. 991, Pist, vol. i.

The first source cited by Green has been published in the following two publications. It confirms that Mary/Marie of England died in 1182 at Montreuil:

1. Historiæ Franco-Merovingicæ Synopsis (1633): 854 (Liber Tertius: “sub A.D.1170: “Maria, filia Regis Stephani, habitum religionis, quem à multis annis abjecerat, resumpsit, & populus terræ, Ecclesias diü iam sibi pro illâ interdictas absolutus intravit.”), 861 (Liber Tertius:sub A.D. 1182: “Maria filia Stephani Regis Anglorum, quondam Abbatissa, posteà Boloniæ Comitissa, tertiodecimo anno postquàm resumpserat habitum sanctimonialis apud Monasteriolum moritur & sepelitur.”).

2. D’Achery, Spicilegium 9 (1669): 458 (Andreas Marcianensis sub A.D. 1169: “Anno Domini M. CLXIX. Maria filia Regis Stephani habitum religionis, quem à multis annis abjecerat, resumpsit, & populus terræ, Ecclesias diu jam sibi pro illa interdictas absolutus intravit.”), 482 (sub A.D. 1182: “Maria filia Stephani Regis Anglorum quondam Abbatissa, postea Boloniæ Comitissa, tertiodecimo anno postquàm resumpserat habitum Sanctimonialis apud Monasteriolum moritur & sepelitur.”).

In more recent time, Thérèse de Hemptinne and Michel Parisse published an interesting article entitled "Thierry d'Alsacre, comte de Flandre, Biographie et actes" in Annales de l’Est, 5th Series, 43 (1991): 83–113.

On page 106, footnote 56, the authors discuss the history of Marie, wife of Mathieu, Count of Boulogne:

“Fin 1162 on voit le pape Alexandre III se démener encore pour faire plier les coupables, mais en vain, Patrologia Latina, CC, nos 113 et 114. Ce n’est que beaucoup plus tard, après la naissance de deux filles, que Marie retournera au couvent, non à l’abbaye de Messines en Flandre, comme le prétend N. Huyghebaert, “Abbaye de Notre-Dame à Messines” dans Monasticon belge, t. III, 1, Liège, 1960, 221, mais à Saint-Austreberthe de Montreuil (Bibliothèque nationale, Paris, Coll. Moreau, 77, 226 : 1172, donation de Mathieu à cette abbaye où Marie s’est retirée). En 1170 Mathieu s’était remarié a Eléonore de Vermandois, sœur de l’épouse de son frère Philippe.” END OF QUOTE.

The entire article may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/dokumente/z/zsn2a040681.pdf

As stated above, the authors confirm that Mary/Marie retired to the convent at Saint-Austreberthe de Montreuil, not at Messines as claimed by Huyghebaert.

For further particulars regarding Mary/Marie of England, wife of Mathieu, Count of Boulogne, please see my book, Royal Ancestry (5 volume set) published in 2013 available for purchase on Amazon or eBay.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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Goodness me, using superseded editions from the 17th century and relying on Green with her 'trembling and reluctant maiden' characterisation of Marie is not exactly best scholarly practice. The editions that I provided links to earlier are rather more satisfactory.

Apart from that, the "well written biography" by Green is not particularly acute: for instance, she stated that Marie was not named in papal fulminations against Mathieu, proving that she was considered 'free from blame in the transaction' (p. 199), yet she referred (p. 207) to a letter from Alexander III in 1168 where Marie was identified by her initial (as were others identified by Green) and clearly encompassed in the blame. This letter was written to the bishops of Soissons, Amiens and Laon to support the claim to Boulogne of Marie's widowed (and since remarried and divorced) sister-in-law Constance - "filia nostra nobilis mulier C[onstantia]. comitissa S. Ægidii, soror carissimi in Christo filii nostri L[udovici]. illustris Francorum regis" - and the couple supposedly guilty of usurping her rights in Boulogne are identified as "Matthæus frater nobilis comitis Philippi et M[aria]. quondam abbatissa prædictum comitatum detinere dicuntur irrationabiliter occupatum, et sæpius requisiti reddere contradicunt". This is not how anyone would speak of someone 'free from blame', whether or not she was still trembling after 8 years as a wife and ca 7 as a mother.

Peter Stewart

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I don't know of any medieval source identifying the convent at Montreuil where Marie died and was buried. There are not many possibilities, but as far as I'm aware the first work specifying Sainte-Austreberthe (i.e.
St Austrebertha, not "Austrebert" as Green and ODNB have it) was Gallia Christiana vol 10 col. 1319, where it is only said that this was believed ('ut creditur') to be the nunnery.

This may well be correct, though a better source is needed to confirm it. The same editors made an absurd identification in vol 14 col. 787, where they reported that Marie was said ('ut aiunt') to be the abbess of Notre-Dame-du-Nid-au-Merle (also called Saint-Sulpice) in the Breton diocese of Quimper occurring in 1124, most probably more than a decade before King Stephen's daughter was born.

Hearsay may be tempting to record, but it doesn't amount to worthwhile history across a span of many centuries.

Peter Stewart